By Jonathan Monovich.
A lot of times you see shows that reference hip-hop, and it doesn’t feel like it’s made by people that live/breathe it. That was what I was thinking about during the making of RapCaviar Presents and was something that was constantly top of mind. We set out to make a show that was authentic, and I think we achieved authenticity with the topics we covered and how we approached them.”
—Carl Chery
For more than a decade, Carl Chery has been a pioneering force in the music industry. Before serving as an innovator at the leading music streaming services, Chery’s start was in journalism. His career has seen success in digital content direction and executive editing for several media outlets ranging from XXL Magazine to BET. He is best known for his time at Apple Music as the Head of Artist Curation and his current role as the Creative Director, Head of Urban Music at Spotify. One of Chery’s key strategic initiatives at Spotify is curating the highly regarded “RapCaviar” playlist, which highlights the best of the constantly evolving hip-hop/rap genre. Chery has a natural gift for curation as evidenced by his success in helping bring awareness to countless up-and-coming artists who are now at the top of the charts. His most recent venture is in executive producing RapCaviar Presents—a six-episode docuseries for Hulu.
RapCaviar Presents, an extension of Chery’s work with the “RapCaviar” brand at Spotify, chronicles the stories of Tyler, the Creator, City Girls, Roddy Ricch, Polo G, and Coi Leray. The supporting cast, featuring Pharrell Williams, Killer Mike, and Post Malone to name a few, all champion a different star of the series. At its core, Chery’s vision offers a genuine look into the current state of hip-hop and how it compares to the genre’s past. He also lends his voice as the series’ narrator. Each episode has a distinct theme and explains why these contemporary artists play an important part in hip-hop’s history. With all of these artists receiving their notoriety during the digital era, perhaps the most interesting exploration of the series is its recognition that the outlet that allowed them to rise to the top is both a blessing and a curse. The artists seem to mutually recognize that the internet is incredibly powerful in serving as a launching pad as well as an impairment due to the unrealistic expectations and invasiveness it enables. Equally as telling is that the series emphasizes “pain is universal and art is therapy.”
I had the pleasure of speaking with Chery about the conception of RapCaviar Presents, the intention of the series, behind-the-scenes stories with the artists, hip-hop’s special relationship with film, and the growing international appeal of the music that he helps bring to the spotlight. RapCaviar Presents is available on Hulu to stream in its entirety on March 30th.
You’ve had a very impressive career in the music industry and have transformed the way listeners discover music with “RapCaviar” and “Feelin’ Myself” at Spotify. What inspired you to take this approach as a curator?
I started my career in journalism, and there was a turning point for me when things went digital. Specifically, when I was at XXL Magazine during the blog era in 2010-2011, there were a lot more channels that we could use to support emerging artists. At the same time, I remember there was a conversation about radio stations and how they weren’t taking as many chances on developing artists as they used to. Being at XXL, we were able to help support artists at the very ground level. With the XXL freshman covers, I was able to see artists like Kendrick Lamar, Meek Mill, Mac Miller, J. Cole, and Big Sean before they became stars. It became clear to me that it was a strategic move to invest in artists early because you build allegiance with them at an early stage and these relationships would naturally continue to build over time. I think it’s also important for a genre to evolve. You can always associate droughts in a specific genre to a lack of new energy. I definitely think my time at XXL helped me cultivate a mindset of really wanting to champion artists at an earlier stage.
I also wanted to support the underdogs. You mentioned “Feelin’ Myself,” and when I joined Spotify in 2018, one of the first things I was told was that women didn’t perform as well as men in our playlists. Immediately, I started trying to figure out some solutions. In addition to supporting female artists in our playlists, I suggested we create a playlist for them specifically. I reached out to a few women on my team to consult them and reassured them that we weren’t trying to segregate them. My intention was to create a new home for these artists in addition to the support we were already giving them. We got their blessing to start a playlist, and we ended up with “Feelin’ Myself.” We also did a show in 2019 for “RapCaviar” with an all-female lineup that included Doja Cat, Megan Thee Stallion, Saweetie, and Latto. Looking back on that lineup, it felt great then but it feels even bigger now because we got them to perform at an early stage in their careers.
It seems like it’s a natural transition for you venturing into film production with RapCaviar Presents, as you are continuing your love for curation in a different medium. What made you want to do the show and is film production something you would like to do more of in the future?
I one hundred percent would love to do more with film production in the future. That’s always been my big picture plan. Ultimately, I want to tell stories. I’m a storyteller, and I’ve been a storyteller my whole career. I’m grateful that we now have a larger storytelling vehicle with the show. At this point, “RapCaviar” has established itself as a trusted source in hip-hop. When you look at trusted sources from the past and present with radio stations like Hot 97 or Power 106, TV shows like 106 & Park, Rap City, and Yo! MTV Raps, or magazines like XXL and Source, they all had the ability to contextualize. There’s either a radio personality doing it, a host doing it, or a writer doing it. The way playlists were being built is that they were a collection of fifty songs and that was it. There was no context. I wanted to build channels that served as the extension of “RapCaviar’s” editorial voice. To do that, the first step was to really beef up our social media presence on Twitter and Instagram. The second step was to launch the “RapCaviar” podcast, which we did last August. The third step was the launch of the RapCaviar Presents docuseries. That’s ultimately why I wanted to do the show and why I thought it was important.
You mentioned you’re a storyteller and the story that you tell in the series with your narration nicely ties everything together. Something I was thinking of while watching RapCaviar Presents is that streaming is a blessing for its convenience, but there’s a lot of nostalgia associated with physical media. Going to music and video stores has always been one of my favorite things to do. Because of this, I loved the concept of the “RapCaviar” record store in the show and the use of records, action figures, magazines, cassettes, and old TVs for the transitions. Can you talk about that creative decision and the editing of the series?
I have to give credit to Karam Gill for that. He is the creative director of the series. Karam also recently did the Lil Baby documentary, Untrapped: the Story of Lil Baby (2022). We made suggestions along the way, but that particular part of the creative direction I owe to him.
I feel like young people aren’t subjected to journalism like this in hip-hop right now. Everything has become very reliant on click bait, so it was very important for us to make a show that was in the spirit of traditional journalism.”
Something else I picked up on while watching RapCaviar Presents is that the show will likely be therapeutic for young people dealing with similar issues like fitting in and the stress/anxiety it causes. There is a lot of good discussion with the artists about being true to yourself, mental health, freedom of speech, and the dangers of social media. What would you say is your main takeaway or message for those watching your show?
I feel like young people aren’t subjected to journalism like this in hip-hop right now. Everything has become very reliant on click bait, so it was very important for us to make a show that was in the spirit of traditional journalism. We also wanted the series to be of substance, feel premium, and have entertainment value. I guess my takeaway on this would be on the way we look at celebrities that we have really idolized since a young age. If I meet Denzel Washington one day, I’m going to fan out and go “oh my god It’s Denzel!” [laughs]. When you see celebrities like that in person they don’t feel real. They feel larger than life. In that sense, I think it’s great for kids to look at figures like that and understand that they’re human just like them. While watching the show, I hope they recognize that these artists go through the same things whether it’s mental health or the pressures of social media. With the Tyler, the Creator story, a large theme was rap archetypes, but that also applies to everyone. We all represent an archetype in some way.
I think that Tyler, the Creator, story is the most deliberate in being crafted in a way to impact kids. I’ll give you the genesis of that story. We met with Tyler in April 2021, and he played us his newest album—Call Me if You Get Lost. After the meeting, we spoke for at least thirty minutes and had a great conversation. At some point, he said “it’s important for kids to know they can be weird like me, paint their nails, and still drive half a million-dollar cars.” That always stuck with me. I remember when it was time to make the series, Karam suggested Tyler as one of the subjects and he even already knew the title of the episode—“Breaking the Mold.” I told Karam I know what the story is going to be, and I told him about my conversation with Tyler. When Karam and I pitched Tyler our idea for the story on a Zoom call, I started by reminding him of the time we met last year, and I circled back to his quote about kids being able to be weird like him. When we showed Tyler the moment at the end of the episode where you see the kids waiting outside his Madison Square Garden show talking about the impact he has had on their lives, let’s just say he had a moment. For Tyler it was like “wow, mission accomplished. Everything that I set out to do is working and this is confirmation. These kids are saying these things without me being there, so they don’t have to be complimentary, and they actually feel that way.” We were shocked at first with how emotional he got, but then it hit me immediately that Tyler really loved the episode. That was the part that really resonated with him.
That’s a terrific story that says it all. Building off the discussion of the show and rap/hip-hop in general, there is a special relationship between rap/hip-hop music and film and both art forms often look to each other for inspiration. Can you speak about the relationship between the two and how you thought of that relationship while working on RapCaviar Presents?
Hip-hop is such a visual genre. The presentation is so critical to consumers and the way consumers receive the artists and their music. I’ll be honest, I didn’t think about the relationship between the two that much during the process of making the show. It was more instinctive. My focus was to make sure hip-hop was represented authentically as possible. A lot of times you see shows that reference hip-hop, and it doesn’t feel like it’s made by people that live/breathe it. That was what I was thinking about during the making of RapCaviar Presents and was something that was constantly top of mind. We set out to make a show that was authentic, and I think we achieved authenticity with the topics we covered and how we approached them. Specifically, I think we got there with the curation of the artists and the little touches like the recurring record store that you mentioned. The record store and what’s inside it are things that look and feel very hip-hop. I personally have inspirations on the film and TV side, but during the making of this particular project it wasn’t necessarily something that I was actively thinking of.
Speaking of inspirations on the film side of things, something I really enjoy about rap music is that artists will frequently sample film dialogue or references films in their lyrics. A prime example would be the Wu-Tang Clan’s use of Kung-fu movie dialogue. Do you have a favorite movie sample or film reference in a rap song?
Oh, wow! Wow, wow, wow, wow. The Wu-Tang Clan is incredible. When you mentioned Kung-fu, my mind immediately went to this one sample. I can’t remember if it’s Ghostface or the GZA, but there’s a long clip in the beginning of the song.
Are you thinking of the opening of GZA’s “Liquid Swords?”
Yes! Yes! Yes! Yes! Yes! That’s the one!
The sample is from a great film called Shogun Assassin (1980).
It’s going to kill me, because I bet by the time we hang up I’m going to think of some exact references that I love but can’t think of right now. There are just so many. I love that question, though.
I saw an interview online where you talked about riding the trains in New York as an escape or an outlet for you to think creatively. This set off images in my head of the recurring presence of the New York City trains in Wild Style (1982). That film is obviously extremely influential on many facets of culture. Was that film important to you or do you have a favorite film of that realm that has inspired you?
Wild Style is a little before my time. I’ve done research. I respect it as a building block and a trailblazing film, but for RapCaviar Presents I was thinking about Rhyme and Reason (1997) and The Show (1995). I was thinking about both of those films because they’re the last hip-hop documentaries that I really remember making an impact—at least on me. Obviously, there are more recent documentaries, but I remember asking “when is the last time that someone created a film that really explained what hip-hop is?” If you look at Rhyme and Reason, it came out in the late nineties. Hip-hop was molded in a different way at that time. It’s a completely different animal now. I feel like we haven’t really talked about the changes. I feel like there could have been a different version of the Rhyme and Reason documentary made every few years to break down how the music and culture have evolved. I think Hip-Hop Evolution does a nice job. They give you a chronological account of what hip-hop is and where it’s going, but I think we’ve really achieved it through the RapCaviar Presents series. Without really spelling it out, we’re giving viewers a status report of where hip-hop is in 2023.
Of the artists in RapCaviar Presents Tyler, the Creator, has been changing the game with his brand GOLF le FLEUR*, Polo G’s mentions his name is part homage to Ralph Lauren, and Pharrell is now the Men’s Creative Director at Louis Vuitton. Fashion and hip-hop are pretty much inseparable at this point, and hip-hop artists are now branching out more than ever in different creative efforts. Was hip-hop’s cross pollination with fashion and other art forms something you thought of while making the show?
I love that this is happening. It’s something that we are very deliberate with for “RapCaviar” and everything we do in hip-hop at Spotify. We want to cater to our core audience, and we know that our core audience is interested in other things like gaming, fashion, and sports. There’s a very symbiotic relationship between hip-hop and basketball. Also, as we have discussed, there’s a strong relationship between hip-hop and TV/film. That’s obviously one of the main reasons we’re doing RapCaviar Presents. With fashion specifically, we were trying to include a story in the series that spoke on how far hip-hop has come in the fashion world. It’s incredible that Pharrell is now the Men’s Creative Director at Louis Vuitton.
We had our “Feelin’ Myself” fashion show last week at Spotify and honored Lil’ Kim as a fashion icon. I wasn’t aware at the time that she was the first rapper to be invited to the Met Gala. As we were trying to figure out what stories to tell, we circled a fashion story several times and part of the context we were discussing was that for a long-time rappers weren’t taken seriously as designers or invited to fashion shows. Now, they’re front and center. Of all people, I saw a clip-on Instagram a few weeks ago with Kodak Black walking at Paris Fashion week. Hip-hop is so embedded in fashion at this point that the fashion industry is aware there’s an opportunity in evolving artists who are fashionistas or just staples in the culture. By the way, I’m going to give you something. I’m going to jump the gun here, but we’re doing a capsule collection with TOMBOGO to celebrate the launch of RapCaviar Presents. Hopefully we get to do a fashion show in the series one day. We’re actively trying to do more in that space, and we think that’s something that would really resonate with our audience.
I think hip-hop’s intersection with other art forms along with the messages attached to the music also has a lot to do with its growing universal appeal. We’re seeing more rappers come out of England, Latin America, Asia, and Europe. Why do you think hip-hop is becoming more globally appreciated?
Well, streaming definitely globalized consumption. Earlier, I mentioned outlets like radio and magazines, and I think we were fed a very local product with those mediums. Now, with the internet, you can learn about artists from just about anywhere in the world. I think kids are also now growing up with a more global mindset, so I think it makes it more possible for these artists to have success in the U.S. Some of the barriers that older generations had in accepting rappers from other countries aren’t really there anymore. I think that sometimes people forget that Bad Bunny is pretty much a hip-hop artist. His music is just in Spanish. The fact that he’s such a big global artist and his audience isn’t exclusively compromised of people that speak Spanish is incredible. I think that streaming has a lot to do with it, but I think a lot of people are also just wired differently now and are more open to accepting new things.
Are there any other artists that you would like to see on RapCaviar Presents in the future and is film production something that we will be seeing more of from Spotify?
I hope we get to do another season. I would love to do more with Cardi B. She’s briefly in the series, but we had another idea for her that didn’t work out based on timing. I would love to do a story with her. Doja Cat also appears in the series and is another person we were wanting to do a story with, but timing didn’t work out. Baby Keem would be really cool too. I would also love to explore something on lyricism. I think the niche movement that’s emerged in the last few years has been very impactful, and I would love to explore that. There’s a lot of stories that we explored and ultimately didn’t end up moving forward with that we may be able to refine, pitch again, and make in the future.
I would like to see episodes on those artists, and I’m sure many would like to see a continuation of the series.
It was great to hear that you liked the show and that you watched it thoughtfully. To hear you make the references that you did, that’s why I made the show. RapCaviar Presents is designed for people like you who are going to pay attention to the details. This is the part of the process that is actually fun to me, and I really enjoy getting to talk with people that have seen the show and ask what their favorite episodes are. I’m curious, which was your favorite?
Jonathan Monovich is a Chicago-based writer. His writing focuses on film analysis, history, and theory and has been featured in Film International, Film Matters, Bright Lights Film Journal, and PopMatters.